ceiling, any of the debt ceiling rate of points that have come up, those are negative in terms of increasing uncertainty. those are going to cause more hesitation in hiring. those are going to slow employment growth below what it would otherwise be, and those are not helpful to the economic recovery or, as you say, congressman, to the budget. >> so in essence, we're kind of kidding ourselves -- [laughter] about being able without creating jobs to solve economic problems, that just making decisions to shift thoughts and ideas and processes and at the end of the day there's still in more people working? >> you need an economic recovery, congressman, for everything else that you want to do, and that requires jobs to come back to where they were. we're still at least 3% below peak employment pre-financial crisis. this is the longest, worst recession in american history since the 1930s. >> thank you very much. thank you -- >> thank you. mr. griffin's recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you all for testifying today. i want to be really clear as well. i haven't heard any